Thursday, August 16, 2018

Philippians 1:1 The True Model Of The Church

Last night, our small group began the study of the book of Philippians. If you want, please follow along with us. The following is a condensed version of our two hour meeting. Please feel free to comment and interact with our group. The version that I will be using, in this study, is a Word for Word Study Version. I will share your comments and/or questions to the group and visa versa. It'll be nice to have an international participation, so let's get started.

Philippians 1:1a

Paul and Timothy, bondservants of Messiah Y'shua, 

Here we have the beginning salutation or greeting from the apostle Paul and his companion, Timothy. 

As you probably know, Paul, formally known as Saul, was a Jew, who was a citizen of Rome and a Pharisee, in Jerusalem. Upon the death of Y'shua, upon the cross, Paul led a concerted effort, to eliminated or put down the growing heretic band of Jews and gentiles, known as Christians, who believed that Y'shua was the Messiah. During a trip to Damascus, Paul was struck down by Y'shua and converted to a bondservant of Messiah Y'shua. Afterward, Paul spent the rest of his life venturing out into the known world doing missionary trips.

On his second missionary trip, Paul met a young and well respected Christian, Timothy, in the town of Lystra, which is in modern day Turkey. Lystra was a small town, just to the west of Tarsus, where Paul was born. Like so many secular Jews of that day, Timothy was a child of a Jewish mother and Greek gentile father. As a result, Timothy was never circumcised, as a Jew. To make him more acceptable to the Jews, Paul circumcised him. Paul became his mentor and together, they changed many lives for the Lord. 

Both Paul and Timothy were bondservants of the Messiah Y'shua. Messiah Y'shua is better known today by his anglicized name, Jesus. Y'shua, who's name means Yahweh is Salvation or Yahweh Saves, was a man created directly, by the Yahweh's Holy Spirit, in the womb of his mother, Mary. Yahweh is the one and only God and Father of Messiah Y'shua. By doing this, Yahweh avoided the curse of man's sinful nature and set a path for mankind's redemption. This man, Y'shua, was to be the perfect sacrifice for mankind's sins, which is required by God's Holy Righeousness, in order for man to be able to present themselves and live in the presence of God.

What is a Bondservant?

Well, first of all, the Greek word translated here as bondservant is 'Doulos'.

There are three types of servants or slaves presented in the Bible. 

1. Slaves: Those of a people conquered by an army and forced into servitude.
2. Servants: Those people who owed a debt to someone and were either forced or voluntarily entered into servitude. Later, after the debt was paid, they were free to leave and live their lives, as they wished.
3. Bondservants: Servants, who after paying their debt, chose to dedicate their lives to the servitude of their previous masters household.

Paul and Timothy were bondservants of Y'shua, because they chose to give their lives to him, after Y'shua paid the cost of their sin debt to Yahweh, on the cross.

This bondservant relationship is the relationship that all Christians have with Yahweh, through his son, The Messiah Y'shua. We live our lives to serve and please God, according to his will.

Philippians 1:1b

… to Saints, in Messiah Y'shua, living in Philipi, with the overseers and deacons.

This greeting or salutation is directed to the Saints, living in Philipi.

Who are the Saints and what does that mean?

Throughout the Christian church history, the word 'Saint' has gone through a metamorphosis. It has become a word to describe super good people, within the church. People who have shown highly religious aspects, in their daily lives. However, the word, 'Saint', doesn't mean that at all. The word means, "a person set apart for a cause". You and I, as Christians, are saints, because we have been set apart of the cause of the Messiah, which is to be reconciled back to the one and only God, Yahweh. Christians are Messianic Saints. We should not be ashamed or too bashful to grab ahold of the title and claim it as ours, for the mere fact that Y'shua gave his life, so you could obtain the title. So, live it.

Philipi was a town, just north of the Aegean Sea, in modern and ancient Greek province of eastern Macedonia. You can still see the ruins in the modern Greek town of Filipoi, which is part of Kavala, Greece.

Overseers and Deacons

Throughout our Church history, two words, that have been dramatically changed, were the Greek words, 'episkopos' and 'diakonos', which is directly translated here as overseers and deacons. These words are synonymous with the modern versions of Elders, Bishops, Ministers, Priests, Shepherds, etc. However, over the years, the church leadership has morphed these words, into what they mean today, in an effort to rule over the laity. 

What makes this preposterous is the fact that the Bible clearly teaches that no one is to rule over anyone, within the Kingdom of God. We are only to have God, through his Son, The Messiah Y'shua, as our one and only shepherd. Y'shua even stated, in Revelation, that he hates the ways of the Nicolaitans, which means, "Those who rule over the laity".

So, what are overseers and deacons?

Well, the first century church was made up of those who were elders. These were the mature people, who clearly had a relationship with God, through the Messiah. Naturally, the church gravitated towards them for teaching, administration, admonishment, mentoring. These were the overseers. There was no one minister or priest, who taught or preached. There was no sunday school or junior church. The small group of believers and their families would be gathered to the overseers, the Elders. The overseers or Elders would not be elected. The Elders would be elders through a natural symbiosis. 

The deacons were the ones who did the outpouring of help and support for the group. They were the ones that would actually took care of the poor, elderly and so on within the small group community. They are the ones that make up the 20% that does 80% of the work, within the church today and usually directed by the overseers. 

A question was posed, last night, what do we do? My response was to leave the worldly church behind and get back to the original first century church model laid out within the Bible. No more impersonal mega churchs. Get back to the small gatherings of believers and get away from the country club gatherings of today. What do you think?


80 comments:

  1. I can agree with 99.9%. No one is perfect :)

    Just in case someone wants a little more background:

    Philippians

    and

    Timothy's life

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  2. I the past, I have had an issue with calling myself a saint. I agree with your post. The way I keep getting over it is reminding myself that if I don't call myself a saint then I'm actually saying what Jesus did on the cross came up short which is far from the fact.

    I also agree that we need to get back to the first century model. We get so use to the way things are we forget the way Jesus set it up in the first place.

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  3. Hi Keith,
    I absolutely love dedicating my life to the Lord, to learn God's ways and endeavour to act upon His Word spoken to me. I love His longsuffering and patience with me, and also His correction, as I learn line upon line and precept upon precept. I would rather walk in the light than in darkness. The more I act upon the Word spoken to me on my journey, the more guilty I feel when I go off course.
    As for the word 'saint' it was never a title, it was a word used for a person who had become a believer in God and a follower of Jesus.

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  4. I like your post and I plan on following it through Philippians. As for where I from Philippians isn't taught much. Of course I go to a church where self help is taught more than the gospel. This should be refreshing.

    I want to study it more but so far so good.

    I don't want to cause any conflict and I don't if I will but if you look up saint in the dictionary you find that one of the definitions is a name that describes someone's position or job. I have no problem considering saint as a title or our position in Christ.

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  5. Tim I just read your two posts on Timothy and Philippians. Your Timothy post is a good fill in for more information.

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  6. Sadly, the traditions of man are making void the Word of God. Unless each believer contributes what God has given to them to share, the church will not be operating as it was meant to operate and many of the gifts of the Spirit will be missing.

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  7. Tim, Thanks for the background support. By the way, I'll take the 99.9% perfection. ;-) LOL

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  8. Chris, I'm in the same boat. For the longest time, I felt very uneasy considering myself a saint, because I kind of felt that I was equating myself to Y'shua. However, the more I read and got closer to God, I became more comfortable.

    Getting back to the first century model is important, in order to fix some of the problems with today's church.

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  9. Hey Brenda, I don't think that the biblical title of 'saint' is something to shy from. Can you explain why you don't feel that it's a title? It's the same thing as being called a Christian or Believer. I guess I need more information concerning your position.

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  10. Hi Jacquie, Yes, too many churches today are self help organizations, instead of being a Gospel Preaching entity of the Lord.

    Good Point about the definition of 'saint'. I can't agree more. Maybe the word 'position' is better than title. Either way, since both mean the same, it's all good.

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  11. Brenda, you are preaching to the choir, when it comes to the Body of Christ operating as it was meant to be. You and I totally agree that many of the problems, within the Church would just go away, if we got back to the first century model, given in the Bible.

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  12. Chris,

    Glad to hear from you again. You have the same "issue" (for lack of a better word) that most Christians have. We have this idea that we are not saints because of the connotation of the word today. And since many of us feel unworthy we feel like it's prideful to call us, an imperfect defective being, a saint. But what we have to remember or some of us even have to realize we are made perfect in Christ.

    Many of us have this condemnation feeling that satan tries to make us feel but the Spirit is calling us to understand we are the righteousness of God in Christ. We are saints in all the forms of the word due to Him.

    Consider yourself a saint!

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  13. Jacquie,

    Thank you for your comment. Hope my blog can give people things to think about and teach even if the person has been a believer for 50 years. I teach history and the backgrounds of stuff is great to know to understand the big picture. That is what Keith is doing when he goes to greek and hebrew.

    You are in a church just like most of us. My pastor basically says "don't let me read your Bible for you", but I don't think pastors should say that. They are there to preach the word and get inspiration from the Spirit to guide us in what the Bible says.

    I feel your pain in that.

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  14. Keith,

    I don't know if I want to be like the 1st century church!!! I mean...look at what Paul had to yell at them for! Heck, they show us how NOT to be.

    I know what you mean though. We have steered away from the original meanings of the teachings.

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  15. Tim, I think Iknow what you mean. As imperfect beings, we tend to stray. There’s nothing wrong with the model, because it’s God-Given, but we suck at following the straight and narrow.

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  16. Hi Keith,
    I was referring to the fact that I do not believe that I am Saint Brenda :-) I do not think it is right to put that kind of title on a person in order to raise them up, as the Catholic church does. It was a word that was used in that day in the same way as the word 'Christians' is used today, for followers of Christ.

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  17. OK, I understand, Brenda, and I agree with you. “Saint” should not be overtly used in that manner, especially as part of your name.

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  18. Is your study group a Messianic Jew study group, in Hamilton Ohio?

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  19. Hey Josh. The actual study group consists of a small group of 8 nondenominational Christians, from in and around Hamilton, Ohio. We definitely teach from a first century Messianic Jewish point of view. However, as you can see, the group goes beyond that, with brothers and sisters from Great Britain, Colorado, The Tennessee Valley and Texas.

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  20. Hi Keith, so you are a group of 8 nondenominational christians.

    That is the perfect breeding ground for another cult or pagan church like the Jehovah Witnesses.
    Of course, you would call yourself the YAHWEH Witnesses.
    You have a little bit of ‘Jesus’ in your teaching to give your group a false start, and then you lead them slowly away from ‘Jesus’ to your real Y’shua and proclaim him to be a servant of your real god called Yahweh.

    Well my friend, I have seen that numerous times.
    Such groups reject all authority over them including the BIBLE the Word of God, and sneak in another book and claim that other to be the Word of God.

    The Jehovah Witnesses are a good example, they made up their own bible, so as to make some kind of sense to the bible, “the New World translation”.

    You my friend, you are already on the way, especially with a few pagan supporters cheering you on :-(

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  21. Look my friend, in those last days you need to be careful, the devil prowls around like a roaring Lion whom he wants to devour.
    And without Jesus you haven’t got a chance my friend.
    No, you are definitely no match for him.

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  22. Paul, the big difference, between what you are describing and this group, is that we facilitate each other to study the Word of God, on our own with the Spirit of God. That’s it. Nothing else. I know that’s foreign to you and the rest of the Christian world, who relies on man’s interpretation rather than God’s direct relavation. My hope has always been that you give yourself over to God and allow him to teach you. Thanks for your comment as always.

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  23. Keith, it is so wonderful to have the Holy spirit lead us and guide us into the truth of God's Word as we study it together..I look forward to you sharing the thoughts of my brothers and sisters in your group.

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  24. Look my friend, you are going the wrong way.
    You are seemingly going back to your Jewish roots, which doesn't profit you anything.

    You are supposed to turn to Jesus Christ, and in Jesus Christ you are a NEW CREATION, old things have passed away and behold all things are NEW.
    In Jesus Christ you are no longer a Jew and no longer a Gentile, but a NEW CREATION my friend.
    A new creation means, something which never was before !

    For this reason, ‘Abraham does not know us, and Israel does not recognize us’ (Isaiah 63:16), just as I have said in my post.

    And you can NOT start with “GOD” !
    Or else, you will end up with “GOD” !

    NO, NO, NO ! You need to start with Jesus Christ, and you will end up with Jesus Christ.
    For the Lord Jesus Christ commands you to be His witnesses, from Judea to the ends of the world.

    And there is no other who will build HIS Church, or who can save you etc.
    In short; if the Lord Jesus Christ has NOT build the house, you have laboured in vain my friend.

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  25. Paul,

    I usually don't answer you anymore because I get a better conversation out of the brick wall but you have misrepresented Keith here based on a wrong assumption.

    Keith is not GOING BACK to his Jewish roots. He is USING his Jewish roots. Big difference, but your pride will never allow you to even open your mind up to that point.

    So, with that, two things:
    1) You just recognized that all Christianity has roots in Judaism. You just said it, plain as day and there is no denying it. So if it based in Judaism then it would automatically infer that Christian words come from Judaism. Hence Y'shua is Jesus. It's just its roots. YOUR words say that.
    2)Me, being a teacher of history, I can tell you that what Keith is doing is using that past to explain the present. That is true method of study. Some do the opposite. They look at the present and try to study the past. That is when you get distortions. There is a saying in history; you can't know where you're going unless you know where you are and you can't know where you are unless you know where you have been. That is all he is doing. He is not giving up his belief in Christ to follow Abraham.

    The OT is the NT concealed and the NT is the OT revealed.

    Why do you think we have the OT? I know I won't get an answer because those kind of questions are foolish to you and you will ignore it. But if you can answer that then we would actually be able to have a conversation.

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  26. Brenda,

    On a side note, I wouldn't mind if the word saint was in front of us. If it means the same thing as Christian then if somebody called me Christian Tim as a title it would be the same as St Tim.

    Eh, just a small observance not an opposition.

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  27. I agree, Brenda. How can someone not want the leading of the Spirit of God? It is beyond description. I also look forward to allowing ourselves to express what the Spirit brings us, as a group.

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  28. Well, Paul, Tim took the words right out of my mouth. Thanks, Tim. I really would like for Paul to continue this conversation along cordial and Biblical lines.

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  29. Now Tim,
    I am stumped as to whether to call you Historian Tim or Christian Tim :-)

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  30. Brenda,
    You can call me anything that I am part of. I was a pastor you could have called me Pastor Tim. You can call me American Tim. You can call me gentleman Tim. You can call me anything but as the saying goes you just don't call me late for dinner. So if you call me Christian Tim or historian Tim I'm I'm fine with. If you call me St tim I probably won't answer because I'm just not used to it, but it's better than call me something negative that's for sure.

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  31. I shall call you blogger friend.

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  32. Tim, why do you always put words into my mouth ?

    1) I did not say that all Christianity has its roots in Judaism.
    To the contrary, I said that a man who is born again has his roots in Jesus Christ our Lord and God and NOT in Judaism. There is a big difference in what I am saying than what you are saying.

    2) Look Tim, you don’t have to smooth talk what Keith is saying and teaching, I surely can read for myself.
    You’re supposed to correct your brother, and don’t give him a false comfort.

    You said, “The OT is the NT concealed and the NT is the OT revealed.”

    From where did you get that stuff from ?
    Did you get that from the book of Alibaba and the forty thieves ?
    Well, I don’t think that the Old Testament is the New Testament concealed.
    I think that the Old Testament AND the New Testament has been revealed to me, otherwise I would also walk in darkness.

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  33. No Paul, you did. Watch this:
    You said, "You are seemingly going back to your Jewish roots,"

    Now how does he have Jewish roots?

    And then you said, "In Jesus Christ you are no longer a Jew".

    That means Jews became Christians once they believed He is the Messiah.

    If you put YOUR words together that is saying that Jews were here first and the Messiah came from the Jews. To be able to "go back to" anything, it had to have its beginnings in that area. Hence, Christianity sprung from Judaism. And YOUR words infer that. It doesn't matter what your actual exact wording was. Your implications of the situation only left one result. And that I already said through your pride you could not accept.

    Just the same as you did not actually say or exactly say "To the contrary, I said that a man who is born again has his roots in Jesus Christ our Lord and God and NOT in Judaism." That is just something you are now trying to back track on and imply another meaning.

    I give Keith my mind all the time. You can go back and see where we disagree a lot. I even agree with you more to a certain extent. But he talks to me and we agree to disagree. You won't talk to us.

    All the OT laws and prophecies point to Jesus. All prophecies are concealed until the right time. All the laws foreshadow who Christ is or would be.

    I am not saying the OT is still concealed. It was laid open with the life of Christ and finished with His death and resurrection.

    And you said something very important, "I don’t think that...". That is correct you don't think that. Your doctrine...

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  34. Blogger Friend Tim. Long but highly acceptable :)

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  35. Ok, Paul, we have heard your usual misrepresentation of our beliefs and let you have your two cents worth. Now, back to the post. Other than we using Y’shua and Jesus interchangeably, what do you agree or disagree about the actual post?

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  36. Look Tim, my language is simple and clear, and I will not get into circular reasoning for the sake of unimportant matters.

    Keith claims that his ancestors were Jewish, and so does Brenda.
    True or false makes no difference, and going back to what the Jews believe is going back to their ignorance.
    Whether they put in a flavor of the New Testament or not, makes no difference.
    All the Jews are the same as the Gentiles, ‘UNBELIEVERS’ !
    Just read the Old Testament, they all have fallen away from the Lord, everyone of them, including their priests and everyone of them to this very day.
    Except the ELECT !
    Remember, the Lord Jesus Christ has kept for Himself 7000 who did NOT bow their knees to baal or Yahweh.
    Those were saved by grace alone, apart from works, lest they too would boast, and that is to this very day.

    For this reason Keith, Brenda and you Tim, should NOT look back, or you will turn into a pillar of salt. (Remember Lot’s wife).

    No ! you need to look forward to JESUS Christ , for He is the author of life, he who believe in Jesus Christ has passed from death to life (born again).

    And he who believes in Yahweh, still remains in DATH.

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  37. Keith, your post is faaar to long, who is going to read that long post ?
    Keep your post simple, one or two or most three points, and I will give you a comment.


    I find it amazing that teachers of the Bible don’t know what a saint is.
    No one of you could give an intelligent answer, as to what saint supposed to mean.

    OK, SAINT, biblical saint supposed to mean, sanctified, set apart for the Lord JESUS Christ alone.
    If you don’t fall into that category, then you are NOT a saint of God.
    If you are a believer in Yahweh, then you are NOT a saint to God, but are a saint to Satan the god of this world.

    God is ONE, Jesus Christ, and He is NOT TWO, not a father and a son.

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  38. Thanks for your comment, Paul. If you would have actually read the post, you would see that was my definition of Saint. We are all saints of Jesus Christ.

    May I offer you a suggestion? Instead of starting on your mantra, maybe you should read what people are saying before lashing out at them. It would the Christian way up doing things.

    I would hope one day that you would grow up and mature in the faith.

    I do agree with you that certain post are too long and should keep it short. However, if you notice, this is from my Bible study that I teach. It is a condensed version of our Wednesday night meeting. It gives an example of how deep you should dig into the Bible to understand what God is trying to get across. Maybe you should try it sometimes. That is not meant as an insult. I truly believe that you are a superficial Bible reader. It comes across in your comments. You would gain immense understanding if you were to read what’s really there and dig deep.

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  39. Paul,

    He is not saying that he is Jewish in his beliefs. He is not rejecting Christ as the Messiah (and we know...you think otherwise). He is using his knowledge of these Jewish customs and seeing Jesus in them. And that is exactly what the OT is about.

    As I asked, why do we have the OT? It's in your KJV, NIV, NASB, and any other perfect English speaking Bible.

    Keith is using it the way God intended. Here is My Son, throughout the whole scripture. Concealed--even you have said this remember? They didn't know his name. Even you think it was concealed. So why argue when you said it too? Revealed---even you have said this remember? They now know His name and you said God revealed things to you. Why do you consistently argue when you actually say the same things?

    It's just a Bible study, looking at Jewish ways to find Jesus. It's real simple. Sure would be nice if you added your ideas and contribute instead of just arguing about all things. I guess the post is too long for you to read. Which is weird because the Bible is clearly lot longer, maybe you don't read that either.

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  40. Tim,
    YES, Keith is saying that he is Jewish in his beliefs.
    And YES, he is rejecting the Lord Jesus Christ as the MESSIAH.

    OK. “Messiah”, does NOT mean ‘ANOINTED ONE’ !

    “Messiah”, does NOT mean ‘JESUS SAVES’ !

    Messiah, means simply ‘God came in flesh, Immanuel’.

    That is what Keith rejects. Not only Keith, but ALL of you, including all the Jews, (apart the elect).

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  41. Paul, you are plainly misinformed. Everything you just said is wrong. Messianic Judaism is not the Judaism of the Jews. Messianic Judaism is driven by GRACE, while Judaism is driven by works. In that way, you're closer to being a Jew than I am. Messianic Judaism lives celebrates the renewed covenant, which Y'shua taught and Jeremiah and the writer of Hebrews wrote about.

    Messiah means 'Anointed One'.

    Immanuel means 'With us is God'.

    I do not reject the Lord Jesus Christ as the Messiah. I celebrate it and proclaim it. I do denounce your irreverent disregard of God, our Father. The Father of Jesus.

    As for me being a Jew and being Jewish, once again, you are wrong. The Bible tells us that those who say they are Jews, but are not, are of the synagogue of Satan. Therefore, Paul, I am neither. I embrace the ways of Judaism for the sole purpose that it does proclaim Jesus.

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  42. Paul,

    No Keith is not saying that, as he just said.

    He is not sacrificing animals or stoning people, or going to a Temple and praying for show. He is looking for the Messiah through scriptures as he just said, "I embrace the ways of Judaism for the sole purpose that it does proclaim Jesus."

    For the sole purpose of finding Jesus.

    The Messiah in NIV: Luke 23:35 "He saved others; let him save himself if he is God’s Messiah, the Chosen One"---The chosen one!

    From the dictionary: Messiah---"the promised deliverer of the Jewish nation prophesied in the Hebrew Bible."

    They collaborate with each other. How did they choose back then? ANOINTMENT.

    You have no knowledge of anything historical do you?

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  43. Tim.
    Yes, Keith claims to believe that Jewish stuff, which has nothing to do with the Lord Jesus Christ.
    He does NOT believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah.
    He believes that Jesus is an anointed man just like any other anointed man.
    Surely he does NOT believe that Jesus is the Messiah, GOD came in FLESH.

    Look Tim, do you read his comments ?
    I don’t think that you do.

    He clearly REMOVES Jesus from GOD and presents Him as an anointed man, and then he takes the devil and puts him in the place of God the Lord Jesus Christ and exalts the devil as the supreme GOD Yahweh.

    Just like YOU Tim, and ALL your renta-crowd does exactly the same.
    “For the sole purpose of finding Jesus.” ?

    Well, look Tim, if you haven’t found Jesus by NOW.
    Then you need to repent from your religious rubbish and turn to the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved.
    You need to turn to the “JESUS” which I preach, and not to a Jesus which the renta-crowd is preaching.

    “From the dictionary: Messiah---"the promised deliverer of the Jewish nation prophesied in the Hebrew Bible."

    What is that ??
    That is a lot of rubbish Tim.
    The BIBLE is the Word of God, and NOT a dictionary.
    A dictionary CANNOT tell you anything more than what the Lord Jesus Christ has WRITTEN.
    After all the BIBLE is called the Word of God, and any other writings are NOT the Word of God.

    And if you think so, then you are deceiving yourself and others.

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  44. Well them lets call him out on it.

    Keith,

    Do you now or have you ever sacrificed a bull, ram, goat, or dove to he closer to God or for any kind of atonement?

    Do you now or have you ever stoned someone that has broken any law or commandment to satisfy God?

    Do you now or have you ever denied that Jesus is the Messiah due to misbelief?

    Do you now or have you ever claimed that you are religiously Jewish and deny the doctrine of grace?

    Yes or no? Any answer will let us know if you are a liar or not.

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  45. August 23, 2018 at 5:32 AM
    Tim, the answers your question is obviously no, Unless you count the steak I had last night. You know that I am a hard-core literalist. I believe every single letters, space, yot, tittle and nuance, within the Scriptures testifies of Jesus Christ I believe Jesus when he said, “search the Scriptures and in them you think you have found eternal life, but they are which testify of me.“.

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  46. Paul, in the end, the big difference between you and me, is that I attempt to interpret every single bit of the Scriptures, while you pick and choose parts of the scriptures that fit your twisted man made doctrine. I have said it many times. All someone has to do is read our comments and compare with the Scriptures. It’s so sad that someone like you, who appears to love the Lord with all his heart soul and mind refuses to look at the Scriptures in a way that would increase his joy exponentially. As I said before, that is your choice.

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  47. So Keith,

    To clarify....You are not saying you believe in all that Jewish stuff. But instead you are saying that you are using all that Jewish stuff to glorify Jesus in the scripture because you actually understand that Jesus is the Word and that scripture testifies about Him.

    And if that is true then Paul must be ...well...I don't know....misunderstanding you or misrepresenting you.

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  48. Tim, Yes, I believe in all that “Jewish stuff”, because it’s in the Bible, but I don’t based my salvation on it. I believe it, because it points to the Messiah. Since it is in the Bible, it glorifies Jesus.

    As I said before, I’m a hard-core literalist. I am also a hard-core purist. I believe everything that’s in the Bible, even if it’s hard to believe, when taken literally. I have been proven wrong way too many times, by the Spirit, when I started to lean toward a symbolic view, as my primary focus, of certain scriptures. Therefore, I take everything ultra-literally. Also, as I said before, I believe not only in the Bible, the Book of God, I also believe in the Book of Nature. I do not believe God’s creation will lie in it’s testimony concerning its creator.

    As for Paul I honestly believe he is deliberately misrepresenting our beliefs, because he is a narcissist. He wants to be viewed as the one and only possessor of Truth, so he can look down upon everyone else. It’s obvious because he wont even acknowledge any common ground. When presented with evidence to the contrary of his beliefs, he ignores it and changes the subject. He’s a textbook narcissist.

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  49. I find John chapter 14 verse 26 a very informative verse.

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  50. In fact, if you read the whole of John chapter 14 it gives the full picture. However the things of God are foolishness to the carnal mind,as scripture states.

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  51. Brenda, I agree. The indwelling of God’s Holy Spirit is an critical part to this puzzle. Without God’s Spirit, you can not perceive the things of God. You can’t see the intricate layering of his Word. I’m glad you made your comment.. it made me stop and realize that Paul never speaks of God’s Spirit within him.

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  52. You see Tim, Keith believes in all that “Jewish stuff”.

    The Scriptures requires from you that YOU believe in the Lord Jesus Christ alone and in NOBODY ELSE !

    Our debate here is about the MESSIAH.
    You are cleverly and deliberately avoiding that “MESSIAH” means ‘God came in flesh, Immanuel’.

    You are perverting the truth and say that the Lord Jesus Christ is only an ‘ANOINTED man’, and NOT God came in the flesh.
    Furthermore, you are deliberately teaching that this anointed man, (Not God the Messiah), but this anointed man came into this world to save you.


    Here is the problem.
    In saying and believing this GROSS Satanic deception, you are constantly demoting the Lord Jesus Christ and elevating another ABOVE the Lord Jesus Christ.
    In your comments, you always avoiding and deflecting that issue and point somewhere else.
    Well, in fact you are lying and distorting the Scriptures the Bible with all that nonsensical, perverted “Jewish stuff”.

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  53. Paul, as always, you show your true deceptive spirit, which is not of Jesus, as you claim. Your question and/or comment implies something entirely different than the actual truth. This is your nature.

    Tim showed you the errors of you way.

    I showed you and I testified that I do believe in the manner that you are stating.

    I honestly don’t know what you are trying to prove and to whom, but you are failing miserably and at the same time that Satan is you guiding spirit, not Jesus, as you claim.

    I would say”Nice Try”.....but it wasn’t.

    Don’t you think it’s time to read the Bible for yourself and read our comments as to what they actually say, not what your deceptive spirit whispers in your ear , in the same way he whispered to Eve, in the garden?

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  54. Hey everyone, here is this week’s study notes:

    Philippians 1:2-6: How Do We Live Our Christian Lives?

    Hope to see you there.

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  55. Paul,

    You really didn't understand Keith did you? Are you that lost in English translation, idioms, sentence structure, references, inferences, and/or implications?

    He said he doesn't do animal sacrifices. He doesn't stone people. He doesn't go to a Temple. He doesn't have a human priest that gives him atonement.

    He simply implied he believes in Jewish history as real history not metaphors. He believes that these things were for the Jews as a way of salvation. He believes the feasts were powerful and meaningful.

    He reads about them. He knows about them. He knows these things do not bring salvation. He said that straight up. All of these things point to the Messiah.

    I knew as soon as he answered you would find a way of not understanding or twist what he said into something that fits your psycho-mentality distortions.

    Again, I will ask, why do we have the OT? You are awfully quiet on that question.

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  56. Tim.
    I think it is you who does not understand what we are talking about.
    Keith and Brenda are very intelligent people and they very well know what I am talking about.

    You don’t want me to talk about the Deity of our Lord and only God Jesus Christ.
    Perhaps you fear that your lack of the knowledge of God would be exposed.

    “The Scriptures requires from you that YOU believe in the Lord Jesus Christ alone and in NOBODY ELSE !

    Our debate here is about the MESSIAH.
    You are cleverly and deliberately avoiding that “MESSIAH” means ‘God came in flesh, Immanuel’.

    You are perverting the truth and say that the Lord Jesus Christ is only an ‘ANOINTED man’, and NOT God came in the flesh.
    Furthermore, you are deliberately teaching that this anointed man, (Not God the Messiah), but this anointed man came into this world to save you.”

    Tim, this is what the “apostasy” is all about.
    The apostasy is the falling away from the Lord Jesus Christ to another god, called Yahweh, and denying the Lord Jesus Christ to be the Father.

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  57. If anyone is tempted by Paul’s unscriptural definition of Messiah, a quick look at Acts 4:25-26, which is a direct quote from Psalm 2:1-2, will show you that the Hebrew Word, for anointed one, is Mashiach, which is Messiah in English. Look it up yourself. It’s that easy. It does not mean “God came in the flesh.“.

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  58. Paul,

    Please provide evidence of what you have just said about me.

    I gave you scripture and even a secular resource. The scripture will always have more authority than secular but my point was that they support each other and therefore the definition of what I gave you is correct.

    The debate YOU interjected into the conversation on August 19 is that Keith is Jewish. I simply redirected you.

    And this is not supposed to be a debate anyway. It is supposed to be a discussion but you make it unhealthy by being so adamant in your man-made doctrine. Plus you can try to "expose" anything about me, there is nothing to expose. My knowledge has repeatedly put you in your place. I even turned it into a debate and won 33-0 if I remember correctly, give or take a few wins by me. I left you out to dry. You couldn't stand against me in that "debate".

    I welcome anyone to go back and read all the discussions Paul and I have had. Please, compare all of them and make your own decision to see whose knowledge of God is "exposed".

    Keith just showed the world again about how wrong you are about the real "debate" you claim we're having. The word Messiah.

    Paul says that the word Messiah does not mean "Anointed One". He says he used the KJV, NIV, and NASB.

    So everyone, look at this Acts 4:25-26
    NASB
    KJV
    NIV

    Compare the three. Messiah=the Christ= The Anointed One.

    DEBATE CLOSED Paul. In YOUR OWN advice you told us to read those versions, AND THEY PROVE YOU WRONG!!!!!!!!!

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  59. Let's look at Psalm 2:1-2
    NIV
    KJV
    NASB

    Notice ALL three say Anointed, and the NASB has it capitalized which infers that it means Jesus.

    Now, everyone, see who perverts what...

    Paul said I said that Jesus is not God in the flesh. That is a lie!!!!!! I have ALWAYS said Jesus is God in the flesh.

    Want proof? Who is Jesus My words show exactly the opposite of your claim Paul.

    So, in the end everyone, whose words are more trustworthy when Paul is shown to be weak in scripture and powerful in a lie?

    Who knows more about what "we're talking about"? Me or Paul?

    Let my words testify my faith. Let his words testify his lies.

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  60. Yes Keith, you have to use another language from another book to pervert the truth.

    “Messiah, does not mean that God came in the flesh”.
    Well my friend, what does it mean then ?

    Does it mean anointed one ?
    “Immanuel” means anointed one ?
    I think you must be kidding :-)

    ‘Anointed one’ and ‘God came in the flesh’; there is a big difference in the meaning of both terms.
    There are numerous anointed ones in the Bible, but only ONE who was called “God came in the flesh”, and that ONE is the Lord Jesus Christ.
    And of course you would pick that which would demote the Lord Jesus Christ to a mere man.

    And say to the Lord Jesus Christ, “For a good work we are not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God” (John 10:33).

    “And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him.” (Mat. 28:9)

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  61. It continues to amaze me that you ignore Tim’s questions and gloss over the errors of your ways. As Tim stated above, he is 33-0 in your debate, and you’ll never get a win in your column, because the scriptures always testify of the Truth and we always use the straightforward scripture. All people have to do is read the comments and compare with the scriptures of God. Paul clearly chooses to deny the truth of the scriptures for his man made doctrine. That’s a simple truth and that’s what we look for, that the Truth of God shines light on the deception of Satan.

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  62. By the way, I honestly don’t think I need to defend myself, because I have written it many times, but yes, I believe. I celebrate that God dwells within Jesus Christ. That is why Jesus is called Immanuel, which is the actual word that means, “God with us”.

    There are many concepts of God that are difficult to understand, but this one is not. God required a man as a sin sacrifice. However, man is sinful in his nature and could not be an adequate sacrifice for our sins. Therefore, God created a perfect man and had his fullness dwell with him. Jesus was a new creation. The Bible is quite clear on this. That new creation, the first among many brethren, is Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ sits at the right hand of the Father, Yahweh.

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  63. He skipped right over all of that didn't he. The scripture you posted was great. The word Immanuel clearly means God with us. And hey, isn't El the Jewish (Hebrew) word for God? Dumb Jewish stuff.

    Notice how he had to back track and add "oh, well, there are numerous 'anointed' ones" blah blah blah. A clanging symbol. He had to rationalize what anointed means. Now, he is correct. We do had Saul and David as anointed ones as well. So, maybe Psalm 2:1-2 is saying this:

    Why do the nations conspire
    and the peoples plot in vain?
    The kings of the earth rise up
    and the rulers band together
    against the Lord and against David and Saul?

    Hmmm.....NOT. How do we know? Because the rest of Psalm 2 is clearly a prophecy about Jesus, not a story about David. Unless we are all suppose to take refuge in David in verse 12.

    Hey Paul....BOO!

    Don't worry that just the Holy GHOST scaring you.

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  64. Isn't it amazing, Tim, when you put it all into context, it falls perfectly into place. I liked that you put David and Saul into the "anointed one", in Psalm 2. It's so easy to misconstrue the scriptures, if you pull out a verse or two, to build a false doctrine. However, if you look at the big picture, as you did in your last comment.....CLARITY.

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  65. Keith,
    Yes my friend, the Scriptures always and without fail testify to the TRUTH, providing you would believe the truth.

    OK. let's look what the Scriptures said about the truth.
    John 14:6 JESUS said, “I AM the TRUTH” !

    Hmmm, interesting, NOTHING mentioned about your god Yahweh ?

    To the contrary, ALL Scriptures testifies about my Father the Lord Jesus Christ.
    In fact, the whole Bible from Genesis to Revelation testifies about my Father the LORD Jesus Christ. Just like His beloved son ‘Paul G.’ :-) he also only testifies to his Father the Lord Jesus Christ, and he calls Him the TRUTH :-)


    You said, “I believe. I celebrate that God dwells within Jesus Christ. That is why Jesus is called Immanuel, which is the actual word that means, “God with us”.”

    What do you mean ?
    Do you mean ANOTHER person within the Lord Jesus Christ ?
    TWO persons within one God ? a double personality complex ?

    No, no my friend, again, that is that satanic trinity teaching, which I hate with a passion.

    “Difficult to understand” ?
    Yes Keith, for you, but NOT for someone who knows God and calls God his Father, ‘JESUS’.

    And yes, the Lord Jesus Christ created a perfect man in His image, and that WAS Adam.

    And yes, you put Saul and David among the anointed ones. And ‘Jesus’, just like another anointed one.

    But you are greatly mistaken my friend, not knowing the TRUTH, which is Jesus Christ.

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  66. Now everyone notice how he skips over his defeated and debunked comments and tries to change the subject.

    Also notice everyone that he still hasn't answered the question about the OT.

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  67. Call out the name of Yahweh. Proclaim the Greatness of Elohim, the Rock. His deeds are perfect and just. A God of Truth without evil. Just and Righteous is he. Deut. 32:3-4

    Since the Word of God is Elohim, that includes the fullness of God that manifested the man Jesus.

    I can do this all night, Paul. You'll always fail because you refuse to read and understand all of the scriptures, including the Old Testament, which brings us back to you not answering Tim's question.

    We are not going to let you derail the Truth. Answer Tim's question concerning the Old Testament.

    Why do we have the Old Testament? It's a simple question.

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  68. Tim, the Old Testament was written for YOU !
    Yes, for you Tim. For unbelievers, for those who don’t know God, just like you, and of course also the Jews who are ignorant of the knowledge of God.

    Isaiah 52:6 “Therefore My people will know My Name, therefore in that day I am the one who is speaking, here I am,”
    Isaiah 9:6 His Name shall be called Mighty God and everlasting Father.
    Isaiah 7:14 ‘and she will call His Name Immanuel (God with us).

    Tell me, what will Jesus be called ?
    Mighty GOD and everlasting Father, Immanuel (God with us).

    Psalm 89:16 They will rejoice in Your Name all day long.

    Tell me, in which Name will they rejoice all day long ??
    In that devil called Yahweh ? May it NEVER be !

    They will rejoice in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ ALL DAY LONG.

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  69. Well Keith, you already have derailed the Truth and rejected the Truth, which of course is the Lord Jesus Christ.
    And you cannot be more lost than you already are.
    And you can call on your god Yahweh as long as you want, he cannot save you, for there is NO OTHER Name given, other than Jesus Christ, whereby you must be saved.

    You should ONLY proclaim the Name of Jesus Christ and proclaim His Greatness, the Rock of our salvation, and ONLY JESUS Christ is the Truth without evil, just and righteous is He alone, and He does not share His Greatness with another. For He alone is God and beside Him is NO other.

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  70. We all proclaim and rejoice in the name of Jesus, because the name of Jesus proclaims that Yahweh Saves. That’s what the name means. Every time you put down the name of Yahweh, you are putting down the power behind and within Jesus.

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  71. Tim, if that isn’t one of the biggest non-answers I have ever read, I don’t know what is.

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  72. And at the same time Keith it's one of his best. He just left out why it's for me. He's right. It is for me but why???

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  73. Good Point, Tim. I’ll give credit where credit is due. However, we’ll be wrong when the other shoe hits.

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  74. No Keith, you do not proclaim and rejoice ONLY in the Name of Jesus.

    “Call out the name of Yahweh. Proclaim the Greatness of Elohim, the Rock. His deeds are perfect and just. A God of Truth without evil. Just and Righteous is he. Deut. 32:3-4”

    Here you got it !
    You are giving GLORY to the devil, just like all the Jews who have rejected the Messiah, the ONLY one who would be able to save them.
    They have rejected the God of their salvation, and exchanged Him for the DEVIL or Barabbas, and murdered the LORD of GLORY Jesus Christ.

    But the Lord Jesus Christ has struck them down to this very day, and continually will strike them down forever, till they will listen to the call of the Lord Jesus Christ, and whosoever will turn and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved, and whosoever will not listen to the Lord Jesus Christ will perish.

    Now, that is for you Keith, and for you Tim, and for Brenda and for all the rest of the rent a crowd.

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  75. Tim said, “He's right. It is for me but why???”

    WHY ?
    Simply, because you are one of those who wants to walk on both side of the road.
    A little bit of Jesus and a little bit of the devil, just so that you don’t offend either side of the camp.

    Don’t you know, that you cannot serve the devil and the Lord Jesus Christ ?
    So, therefore make up your mind which one you are going to serve Baal or the Lord Jesus Christ, and don’t be lukewarm, the Lord Jesus Christ will SPEW you out of His mouth.

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  76. Paul, you honestly think that YHWH appearing over 6800 times, as the object of praise and godly worship, the name of the God over all creation, the creator, a jealous God that created man and used as part of Jesus name is Satan?

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  77. Paul,

    You may think that answered it but it was way too vague. Do you know why you need the OT? Do you know the purpose for the OT?

    My "why" question was not a real question. I was implying that you didn't really answer the question. I know why it was written.

    I want to walk on both sides? How does that help answer the question? Who will I not offend? Have you not heard me tell Keith I feel he is wrong? You have missed a few conversations.

    So, my question still stands, why do we have the OT? "Tim, the Old Testament was written for YOU !
    Yes, for you Tim. For unbelievers, for those who don’t know God, just like you, and of course also the Jews who are ignorant of the knowledge of God."---That doesn't say why it is for me. What does the OT say about God?

    I know, but do you you?

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  78. And the great disappearing act happens once again.
    35-0????

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  79. Staying with God’s Word, you can’t lose.

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