"There is no greater love, than for one to lay down his life for another."
Well, that is exactly what Y'Shua, Jesus, did for all mankind. I would go out on a limb on say he loves us. So great is his love, he even loves those who don't love him back.
Getting back to the original point, atheist and other nonbelievers are aggressively targeting our children with the oldest trick, Satan has in his arsenal, little white lies. Just like the one above, he loves to tell them little white lies and take advantage of the chink in our children's armor, to cause them to doubt their faith and then sit back and enjoy their destruction. He started with Eve and continues today.
Bottom line: Never stop investigating the truth. The truth will set you free...and thats what you'll find, When You Search For The Truth.
Hi Keith,
ReplyDeleteI wish He would have said that to Esau.
1 John 4:8-16 = God is love !
1 Co. 13:8 = Love never fails !
If you believe that love has failed even once. If just one person is in hell who was loved by your god, then your god is not love.
100% success rate that never fails is by definition LOVE.
Hi Paul, There is a difference between Love and Justice. Justice is what sends you to hell, not love. Love keeps the door open to salvation until the very end.
ReplyDeleteKeith, love supposed to keep us out from hell and not condemn us to hell.
ReplyDeleteSo, why then are people in hell if He loves them ?
The justice which was due to us fell upon the Lord Jesus Christ, and for our transgressions He suffered on the cross.
I think that you need to read again the definition of LOVE.
Hi Paul, If your Son commits a crime, do you stop loving him? Obviously, not! However, your never ending love for him doesn't stop the justice system from exacting it's punishment upon him. It's the same with God. He loves his creation but his justice is supreme.
ReplyDeleteKeith, God did not have a son, God IS the Son.
ReplyDeleteGod has many sons, but not all mankind are His sons, only those through the line of Adam are His sons.
Obviously He loves His sons and gave His life for them, but He does not love the sons of the devil and neither did He die for them.
Look at the history of your doctrinal statement and you'll find that your belief is a man-made doctrine, circa 1300's. God is calling you back to his original doctrine. Why don't you come home, brother?
ReplyDeleteOnly in Jesus Christ a man is home and NOT in Yahweh or in any other name.
ReplyDeleteJust read again the definition of LOVE :-)
Biblical Love English equillivent is Total Commitment, Patient and Adoring. That's exactly what Yah Ehyeh has shown all along, to the point of the giving of his only begotten son, as a sacrifice for our sins.
ReplyDeleteA common misconception is that the opposite of love is hate. It's not. Love is a verb but we commonly use it as an emotion. The opposite of love is apathy. God loved the world that He GAVE His only Son. Jesus loved us so much He GAVE His life for us.
ReplyDeleteThe opposite of hate is not love. Hate is an emotion. The opposite of hate is like.
You can love someone and hate them at the same time. David said God liked him. God said he hated Esau. God loved both of them. But He found David likable. He did not like Esau.
Jesus did die for ALL.
2 Cor 5:15--He died for everyone so that those who receive his new life will no longer live for themselves. Instead, they will live for Christ, who died and was raised for them.
But only those who accept Him will He raise. I wish we would read the Bible and not just guess at it.
Tim, I agree! What you state is a great argument for what God wants us to do, get away from the limited English language versions of the Bible and get back to the original tongue, where the truth and complete understanding lies.
ReplyDeletePaul, this is why I am constantly advocating for you to get away from your erroneous English versions. It glosses over so many deeper meanings, that you can get, from the original text.
Tim,
ReplyDeleteLove is the opposite of hate. Love is a verb just as hate is a verb. Love and hate, both can be emotions and actions.
The Lord made it clear that He hated Esau, He did not love him.
Hate is the absence love.
He hated Esau in the womb, before he did good or evil.
I don't think that you can love someone and hate them at the same time.
If you amalgamate love and hate, then you have a confusion.
The Lord Jesus never told you that you can love and hate your brother a the same time.
Luke 16:13. 'for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other.'
Paul, Once again, you are a victim of the erroneous English version of the scriptures. In the scriptures, there are nuances in the original language, in which the scriptures were written. The Love, that we are referring to, is Agape, which means, Total Commitment, Patient and Adoring. You can see this in John 3:16. Are there people that God hates???? Absolutely, he hates what is in their heart. However, if that person turned to the Lord, the hate would disappear. I hate to beat a dead horse into the ground, but you are doing yourself a disservice by your blind allegiance to the erroneous English biased translated versions of the Bible. God is calling you back to his doctrine and his Word. He loves you. He doesn't hate you, my friend. Please come home.
ReplyDeletePaul,
ReplyDeleteYou're not getting the big picture here on this one.
I agree that love is an emotion in our world but it in reality it is more than just that. The human race has changed the idea of real love and placed a definition on it as an emotion. I love pizza. I love summer. I love my wife. I love baseball. Can I really love these things? Truly love them as in all the same way? No. We have distorted the term of love and what it means. I like pizza. I like baseball. I like my wife. But only one of those things I would die for...my wife, hence love as an action. This is why the Bible CLEARLY states the different types of love we can have. Love causes us to act. The opposite of love is apathy, when we do not care enough to act. Apathy does not mean hate. It just means we do not care enough.
The word hate can be better translated as "to not like". I can love my wife but at times she is hard to like, and vice versa. I would die for her at all times even when she makes me not like her in times of tribulation for lack of better words.
God hated Esau. Why? Because He was displeased with him. He still loved him. Jesus died for ALL.
Are you saying He hated so many people that He didn't die for them? Are you saying He basically says "forget some people, let them burn no matter what"? Are you saying that God so loved only some people that He sent His Son? I don't remember those verses.
You have two choices--show love or apathy for people
You have two choices-- like or hate people's actions
Paul,
ReplyDeleteYou're not getting the big picture here on this one.
I agree that love is an emotion in our world but it in reality it is more than just that. The human race has changed the idea of real love and placed a definition on it as an emotion. I love pizza. I love summer. I love my wife. I love baseball. Can I really love these things? Truly love them as in all the same way? No. We have distorted the term of love and what it means. I like pizza. I like baseball. I like my wife. But only one of those things I would die for...my wife, hence love as an action. This is why the Bible CLEARLY states the different types of love we can have. Love causes us to act. The opposite of love is apathy, when we do not care enough to act. Apathy does not mean hate. It just means we do not care enough.
The word hate can be better translated as "to not like". I can love my wife but at times she is hard to like, and vice versa. I would die for her at all times even when she makes me not like her in times of tribulation for lack of better words.
God hated Esau. Why? Because He was displeased with him. He still loved him. Jesus died for ALL.
Are you saying He hated so many people that He didn't die for them? Are you saying He basically says "forget some people, let them burn no matter what"? Are you saying that God so loved only some people that He sent His Son? I don't remember those verses.
You have two choices--show love or apathy for people
You have two choices-- like or hate people's actions
Keith, you need to read the Bible, it says, that the Lord hated Esau while still in the womb, before he done good or evil.
ReplyDeleteJohn 3:16, Esau was also in the world, and there are many other Esau in the world to day.
You said, 'Agape, which means, Total Commitment, Patient and Adoring.'
Obviously it was not for Esau.
And Agape supposed to mean 'unconditionally'.
Hi Tim,
ReplyDeleteYou said,'God hated Esau. Why? Because He was displeased with him. He still loved him. Jesus died for ALL.'
No Tim, Please read the Bible, God hated Esau BEFORE he done good or evil, while still in the womb.
And why would God be displeased with him, he hasn't done anything wrong ?
You said, 'Are you saying He hated so many people that He didn't die for them? Are you saying He basically says "forget some people, let them burn no matter what"? Are you saying that God so loved only some people that He sent His Son? I don't remember those verses.
Well Tim, are you saying that He loves them so much so that He throws them to hell ? Are you saying that He utterly destroys people with sickness and disease of the worst kind because He loves them ?
Are you saying that God loves everybody in the world (John 3:16), even though He hated Esau (Rom. 9:13), and He hates all workers of iniquity (Ps. 5:5), and the assemblies of evil doers (Ps. 26:5) etc. ?
No my brother, I don't think that you understand election.
Are you saying that the Lord Jesus paid and suffered for the sins of all people in hell ?
Are you saying the the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ has NO redemption power to redeem them from hell ?
Again, I don't think that you understand election my friend.
Hey Paul, You are correct when you say that agape means unconditional. That is what commitment is. Our God is totally unconditionally committed to Mankind. As for Esau, can you not love your whole family, but just like or hate an individual relative . You can still say I love my family. I know you can see the difference. Why are you being so contrary?
ReplyDeleteBecause of ego Keith. He knows there is a flaw but can't admit it.
ReplyDeletePaul,
You didn't answer my question, except by trying to throw it back on me. OK....
You say we should read the Bible, but I don't see where it says "And God hated Esau from the womb". Now I see why you are saying though, because of Romans 9, but these two verses are not chronological. The first part is from Genesis and the second part is from Malachi. They are not hand in hand verses. They only explain that God chose Jacob and His people and would not like the things Esau and his people would do. This was a prophecy that God would chose Jacob. It had nothing to do with Esau and the time he spent in the womb.
And now to actually answer your questions:
God does not cause the human race to have sickness. We brought that upon ourselves. Now why He lets it happen is a different question and one that I wish I could change or know the real answer. Psalms 5:5 is about those who do evil. It is not about God hating people and then they do evil. They do evil and He hates it. And again, it doesn't say He doesn't love them.
I am so glad thought that you know EVERYTHING and can straighten me out. Why is it that we're the ones who "don't understand"?
Jesus did suffer for all of those who will be in hell. They did not accept Him, their choice.
The elect is the Jew in most situations by the way, the chosen ones.
Keith as you said on my blog, good luck with this one.
Because of ego Keith. He knows there is a flaw but can't admit it.
ReplyDeletePaul,
You didn't answer my question, except by trying to throw it back on me. OK....
You say we should read the Bible, but I don't see where it says "And God hated Esau from the womb". Now I see why you are saying though, because of Romans 9, but these two verses are not chronological. The first part is from Genesis and the second part is from Malachi. They are not hand in hand verses. They only explain that God chose Jacob and His people and would not like the things Esau and his people would do. This was a prophecy that God would chose Jacob. It had nothing to do with Esau and the time he spent in the womb.
And now to actually answer your questions:
God does not cause the human race to have sickness. We brought that upon ourselves. Now why He lets it happen is a different question and one that I wish I could change or know the real answer. Psalms 5:5 is about those who do evil. It is not about God hating people and then they do evil. They do evil and He hates it. And again, it doesn't say He doesn't love them.
I am so glad thought that you know EVERYTHING and can straighten me out. Why is it that we're the ones who "don't understand"?
Jesus did suffer for all of those who will be in hell. They did not accept Him, their choice.
The elect is the Jew in most situations by the way, the chosen ones.
Keith as you said on my blog, good luck with this one.
Paul,
ReplyDeleteI apologize. I took out a little frustration on you. I hate internet sometimes, it feels too easy just to vent without thinking of the other person. My frustration is not with you. Yes, I disagree with you but I should have just let it go at that. My apologies.
Keith,
ReplyDeleteUnconditional does not mean 'committed', it means, NO condition attached.
Unconditional love, means that there are no conditions attached for loving a person.
This is what Christians believe, but I don't believe that.
I believe that God loves only His children, on the condition that they are His children.
And He hates the devils children on the condition that they are the devils children.
That is called election my friend, and Esau is not God's son through the line of Adam, and for that reason God hated Esau.
Tim, absolutely no !
ReplyDeleteGod hated Esau before he was born (Rom (9:11), still in the womb, before they had done anything god or bad.
Why ? Simply, in order that election would stand.
All that is just in one verse, Tim, not to mention the rest.
You said, 'They only explain that God chose Jacob and His people and would not like the things Esau and his people would do.'
Certainly NOT my friend. Please read the life and the account of Esau and then you will see that Esau was a much more honorable man than Jacob, and then compare the two.
It was an election choice and not a foreknowledge choice.
You said, 'God does not cause the human race to have sickness.'
(Deut. 32:39) its God who brings death and life, wounds and heals, (Ex. 4;11) He makes deaf, dumb and blind etc. (1 Sam. 15:3) God destroys the women and children. (Isa. 44:24) God makes all things ALONE !
You said, 'Psalms 5:5 is about those who do evil. It is not about God hating people and then they do evil. They do evil and He hates it. And again, it doesn't say He doesn't love them.'
Psalm 5:5 is a simple statement that God hates the wicked, just as Jesus has said in John 8:44.
You said, 'They do evil and He hates it'.
That is contrary to Psalm 5:5, God hates the PERSON, the evildoer, the wicked people.
You said, 'Jesus did suffer for all of those who will be in hell. They did not accept Him, their choice.'
Who told you that ? There is not one who accepts Him, no, not even one, they are all haters of God and lovers of self and lovers of pleasure.
Why would they accept Him ?
Do you think that those who accept Him go to heaven and if they reject Him they go to hell?
If they accept Him today, they go to heaven, reject Him tomorrow they go to hell, accept = heaven, reject = hell and so on. That sounds like a 'yo yo' salvation.
Brother Tim, you don't need to apologize. These debates will always get a little heated and that's OK.
Only in those debates we will expand the borders of our understanding and that is the divine will of God.
Hey Paul. I'm sorry, but the scriptures and the Greek dictionary just don't agree with you. I know that you have put a lot of stock into the erroneous English translation of the Bible, but wouldn't you rather know the truth before you stand before the throne of God?
ReplyDeleteI will only address one issue because if I addressed all of them I would get lost in the post myself.
ReplyDeleteEsau gave away his birth rite for food. Although I see why you would say Esau was more honorable since Jacob basically didn't follow God until he wrestled with Him.
But if Esau was honorable and did nothing wrong then why did God "hate" him? Esau stood for a race. The OT is literal but all has a symbolic meaning for the NT.
I heard a good way of saying it: The OT is the NT concealed while the NT is the OT revealed.
Esau thought nothing of the gift he was given (first born), he gave it away for his physical being. This shows us that our physical bodies are not as important as the spiritual plan God has for us.
But again, God loved Esau like every other human. Otherwise how do you and I know He loves us? Maybe he hates you AND me???? After all did He destroy Esau as a sign of hate? No. Esau was very prosperous. Although I think I read that no one knows if any of Esau's descendants are alive today.
Oddly enough though, an extra reading of Jews (book of Yasher) claim he tried to stop Jacob from being buried where Isaac was buried.
Anyway back to the point, why would God hate Esau in the womb? You added to scripture there by the way. I see why you say that but it doesn't say that exactly.
I will only address one issue because if I addressed all of them I would get lost in the post myself.
ReplyDeleteEsau gave away his birth rite for food. Although I see why you would say Esau was more honorable since Jacob basically didn't follow God until he wrestled with Him.
But if Esau was honorable and did nothing wrong then why did God "hate" him? Esau stood for a race. The OT is literal but all has a symbolic meaning for the NT.
I heard a good way of saying it: The OT is the NT concealed while the NT is the OT revealed.
Esau thought nothing of the gift he was given (first born), he gave it away for his physical being. This shows us that our physical bodies are not as important as the spiritual plan God has for us.
But again, God loved Esau like every other human. Otherwise how do you and I know He loves us? Maybe he hates you AND me???? After all did He destroy Esau as a sign of hate? No. Esau was very prosperous. Although I think I read that no one knows if any of Esau's descendants are alive today.
Oddly enough though, an extra reading of Jews (book of Yasher) claim he tried to stop Jacob from being buried where Isaac was buried.
Anyway back to the point, why would God hate Esau in the womb? You added to scripture there by the way. I see why you say that but it doesn't say that exactly.
Yes Tim, we know that Esau sold his birthright, but the Lord hated him BEFORE he sold his birthright, and He loved Jacob BEFORE he did good or evil.
ReplyDeleteAll that is in order that election might stand.
Jacob was the same sinner as Esau. God hated Esau because he was a son of the devil and Jacob a son of God, through Adam.
You see, God elected Jacob through the line of God (Adam) Genesis 5:1...., and He rejected Esau through the line of the devil (Cain) Genesis 4:16....
You said, "But if Esau was honorable and did nothing wrong then why did God "hate" him? Esau stood for a race"
I did not say that Esau did nothing wrong, I said that he was a better man than Jacob, but election does not count the performance of a man, or his goodness.
Election has to do with children, the children of God and the children of Satan, or just as you have said, "Esau stood for a race".
Although I did not use that statement, but your statement is true, how else can we have so many different races ?
If Adam and Eve would be one race, how then did we end up with so many different races ?
One race in the beginning could not have produced two races.
You said, "But again, God loved Esau like every other human. Otherwise how do you and I know He loves us? Maybe he hates you AND me???? After all did He destroy Esau as a sign of hate? No. Esau was very prosperous. Although I think I read that no one knows if any of Esau's descendants are alive today."
Wow brother, I love that question, I wish that every man of God would ask that question just like you.
No one can really know the love of God till he knows the answer to your question.
And yes, I do know the answer, but I can't give you the answer in a few sentences, perhaps another time.
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ReplyDeletePaul said, "Yes Tim, we know that Esau sold his birthright, but the Lord hated him BEFORE he sold his birthright, and He loved Jacob BEFORE he did good or evil."
ReplyDeleteWord for word from scripture please. You cannot use the passage you stated because they are not the same time period.
Paul said, "Jacob was the same sinner as Esau. God hated Esau because he was a son of the devil and Jacob a son of God, through Adam."
Are you stating that Esau was literally satan's child or metaphorically? Was he Cain's child???????? Surely you are not stating either of those claims. Please state scripture where it says that Esau was Cain's descendant.
Paul said, "Although I did not use that statement, but your statement is true, how else can we have so many different races ?"
Easy answer but is that a different topic? God split the "races" at the Tower of Babel.
Gen 11:8-9:
8 So from there Adonai scattered them all over the earth, and they stopped building the city. 9 For this reason it is called Bavel [confusion] — because there Adonai confused the language of the whole earth, and from there Adonai scattered them all over the earth.
Paul said, "If Adam and Eve would be one race, how then did we end up with so many different races?"
Are you claiming evolution? If you live in a sunny climate you get tan. If you live there permanently and you have children, then your children have tans and it becomes part of your genetic make up. Plus, Adam and Eve had all of the chromosomes needed for all races to begin. When people who share similar genetic make up stay with each other, over time certain genes tend to die out. Punnett Squares my friend, Punnett Squares.
Paul said, "One race in the beginning could not have produced two races."
The didn't. We are still one race Paul, human. We have different physical traits but that is all about mate selection, adaptation to climate, genetic mutations, and racism.
Paul said, "Wow brother, I love that question, I wish that every man of God would ask that question just like you. No one can really know the love of God till he knows the answer to your question. "
I know the answer. He loves all. If He loves all then He loves me. If I accept His love I am hopelessly saved by His grace.