I ran into one recently, that I honestly haven't heard before. This individual pointed out the God said, to Adam and Eve, that they would die the day they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. They didn't. Adam supposedly lived to a thousand years old.
For reference, this is found in Genesis 2:18 and in Genesis 5
Well, my first response was that God didn't tell that to Adam and Eve. He just told Adam, just before creating Eve. That's the first thing she was wrong about and technically Adam only lived to be 930 years old.
I went on the say that the Bible clearly tells us that time, within God's reality and Adam's original reality, is and was different than ours. In the Bible, we are told,
"A Thousands Years In Your Eyes is a day. A previous day as though it passes like a watch in the night."
Psalm 90:4
"Moreover, not this one thing to be hidden from your knowledge, beloved, that with the Lord, one day like a thousand years and a thousand years like a day."
2 Peter 3:8
You see, when Adam and Eve, disobeyed, they were immediately tossed out the Garden's dimensionality. Within the Garden of Eden, only one day had passed, while outside the Garden, around 930 years has passed, exactly what the above Bible verses tell us above. Therefore, Adam did die within the same day, within God's dimensionality, as when he was told of the penalty for disobedience, but it seemed like almost a thousand years, in this reality.
In the end, there are no errors, within the Bible.
Shalom.
In the end, there are no errors, within the Bible.
Shalom.
I always thought of it as they died spiritually that day.
ReplyDeleteHey Sandi. I can honestly see it both ways. Now, we have an answer on both the literal and spiritual levels. Great Comment!
DeleteI would still say it was the same day and I agree with Sandi. I feel it was definitely a spiritual death. But I also feel it was a physical death as in it's the day they started to actually age.
ReplyDeleteBut the way you worded part of this got me thinking about how life inside the Garden may have been different from outside the Garden. If could explain the 6 day-15 billion year issue. Time inside the Garden may have been meaningless while that on the outside aged. Almost a precursor to heaven and time.
Not saying I believe that but it could make sense. The only thing it wouldn't solve is I don't think there was death anywhere in God's creation until the fall. So if on the outside there were trees and animals did they die? I don't think so because I think it would go against some scripture.
Nonetheless it was interesting thought.
Hey Tim, we are definitely in agreement that inside the garden (God’s Reality), there is no death. Outside, there is.
DeleteYour point that death means that they started to age is good, but typically the Hebrew uses one of two words, to convey the process of dying and that is ‘gava’ and ‘maveth’. However, it wouldn’t be a point I would debate. The clear point is indeed they started to die, once outside the garden and it took somewhere around 930 years for the process to complete, which is pretty much one day in God’s reality. Again, this coincides with what God said in Genesis 2:18.
I totally agree with your ”6 day-15 billion year issue” comment. There are many exciting scientific findings that inadvertently confirm things within the Bible. I think it’s so cool.
I also find it intriguing that Ancient Jewish Biblical translations include Adam and Eve being clothed in light, which support the difference in the two realities.
As for the trees and animals within Eden, I honestly think that they would also be eternal. It opens a great discussion on what creation lost, when Adam and Eve fell. It would explain why Cain was so afraid of what other men would do to him, when he was sent from God’s presence. Could have been a lot of resentment towards Adam and the first family.
Hi Keith,
ReplyDeleteit was obvious that the lady you met had been looking at some part of the Bible, but it looks like she was basing her thoughts upon the carnal mind that would only accept a day as 24 hours on earth. The things of God are foolishness to the carnal mind, and if we look at the Adam in Genesis ch.2 he was the Adam formed from dust, and if we look at the Adam in Genesis ch. 5 it is mankind created by God. I believe absolutely that it is the difference between mankind without the Holy Spirit and mankind that has become born again of God's Holy Spirit. (the sons of God and the daughters of men) There is so much that can be spoken about here, but it is the Holy Spirit that leads us into all truth.
I agree Brenda, all unbelievers attempt to dispute the scriptures with the carnal mind. It would be different if they actually state the scriptures correctly. However, they don't even do that. It's the same mindset within the church. People are too lazy to open the book and check it out for themselves.
DeleteThe two man creation and formation is vital to understanding God's Word and the origin of Adam and mankind. As for the difference between mankind with and without the Holy Spirit, Could be...Could Be...The Scriptures don't Disagree.
Yes, we need to always pray for the Holy Spirit to Lead Us Into All Truth, A Promise Of The Scriptures.
Yes Keith, it would be better if you actually would state the Scriptures with chapter and verse. But as it is, you are only INDICATING, which means not much, only foolish speculations.
DeleteWild stories like the “6 day-15 billion year issue”. Surely not from the Bible, I think you and Tim got that out of the book of Alibaba and the forty thieves.
Because you don’t believe the Bible and for that reason you secretly quote the book of Alibaba and the forty thieves and indicating that what you have said is contained in the Bible.
Yes it is true that all pagans dispute with their carnal minds the Scripture, the Bible, the 66 books.
They without fail quote other books, in Hebrew or in Greek because they don’t believe the Word of my Father the Lord Jesus Christ.
Those pagans think that they know it better than my Father the Lord Jesus Christ, and then they ADD to the Word of God their own words, contrary to what my Father said.
You said, “The two man creation and formation is vital to understanding God's Word and the origin of Adam and mankind.”
Hmmm, I wonder what that sounds like.
I hope you don’t pick that story out from the book of Alibaba and the forty thieves ?
You said, “Yes, we need to always pray for the Holy Spirit to Lead Us Into All Truth, A Promise Of The Scriptures.”
Where in the Scriptures is that written ?
And who is that Holy Spirit who will lead you into all the truth. Is that the THIRD PERSON of God ? Yes I know that is really what you believe.
Because you don’t believe in my Father the Lord Jesus Christ, therefore necessity demands from you to believe in MANY gods, and your many gods will lead you into all deception.
Paul, I would love to discuss the two man creation with you. However, you refuse to acknowledge that the English versions of the Bible aren't biased and mistranslate. You refuse to acknowledge the Hebrew from which they are translated. How can you discussed when you throw up roadblocks?
DeleteI don't know if the true interpretation of 'man' in Genesis ch. 5 v. 1 is plural, but I believe it is, and I believe that once we are born again of God's Spirit then we are taught from that chapter on, because it speaks of mankind being made in God's image and we are not in God's image until we become a child of God. There is no time to God and that Word is the same yesterday, today and forever. Also, if we are able to become children of God through believing in Y'shua, Who was the FIRST of many brethren as John ch.1 v.12 states, then all these scriptures and many others make sense , and the sons of God mixing with the daughters of men can be a warning to us not to be unequally yoked to unbelievers.
ReplyDeleteHi Brenda, Within the first three chapters of Genesis, Adam was used exclusively and interchangeably to describe man, men or mankind. Starting in chapter four, Adam, Chalal and Enosh was used to indicate man or mankind. It is my opinion that the first three chapter concerns the first generation of Adam and mankind.
DeleteThe first generation were the only ones to have remnants of the first creation, a clothing in light. As they grew older, that dimensionality grew dim, until it was non-existent. All offspring became progressively mortal.
Notice in chapter four, chalal or enosh began to profane the Lord. Ever since then, man has tried to crawl their way back to the first creation status.
It wasn't until we had complete access to God's Holy Spirit, through the Messiah, that mankind had the ability to be transformed into Ben Elohim, Sons of God.
As for the warning of being unequally yoked, I agree. Even God's Law indicates there are ramifications to being unequally yoked. In Deuteronomy, it says that a mamzer will not be allowed into the Assembly of YHWH. A mamzer is a child born from unequally yoked union, specifically a Jewish man or women marrying a heathen.
Brenda, you said, “I don't know if the true interpretation of 'man' in Genesis ch. 5 v. 1 is plural, but I believe it is,”
DeleteYou don’t know ? and you claim to be born again.
Well Brenda, I think you have a comprehension problem, or worse, a deception problem.
Open your Bible in Genesis 5:1 and read, “This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day when God created man, He made him in the likeness of God.”
Tell me Brenda, is that plural or singular ?
No, you don’t need to be Einstein; all you need to do is to read what is says, and then of course you need to believe it.
I am embarrassed when somebody claims to be born again and doesn’t believe what is written.
And the rest in your comment is all cultist beliefs and interpretations.
Look Brenda, I know that you can NOT change, or even learn the truth from being taught.
You need to call upon the Name of my Father the Lord Jesus Christ, He is your only hope for you to know the truth.
Paul, you said,
Delete"I am embarrassed when somebody claims to be born again and doesn’t believe what is written."
Let's try to think that one through, a little more and attempt a little self introspection, eh?
Yes Keith but the church is called the Israel of God so that says quite a lot about the scriptures being discerned spiritually also. I don't think it is coincidence either that at the end of chapter 4 of Genesis it says that men began to call upon the Lord. That verse is just before ch.5 speaking about the 'creation' of man, which I believe is speaking spiritually to God's Israel, the church. Nothing to do with time, but to do with teaching. We as born again believers can be in similar spiritual situations as the characters in the scriptures, just as John the baptist went in the Spirit of Elijah, and can be instructed through those stories as to what to do and what not to do.
ReplyDeleteBrenda, please expound on your "the church is called the Israel of God." The scriptures state that the church is grafted onto the root, but does not overcome or take the place of the root. Israel still has a part to play in God's Plan, separate from the Church, the Body of the Messiah.
DeleteIt pains me to say this, but I have to agree with Paul, concerning chapter five. The Hebrew is quite clear that chapter five is speaking of Adam and his direct descendents, not mankind in general.
As for the spiritual teaching, I have no problem with the lesson, but on the literal level, it is not speaking of the church. The church is a separation creation, born out of God's salvation plan.
I believe absolutely that we are the spiritual Israel of God when we become born again of God's Spirit, and just as the Israelites had to journey through the wilderness to the promised land so too do we spiritually journey through the 'wilderness' to the promised land as we work out our salvation. Galatians ch. 6 v.16 speaks about the Israel of God, and I do believe it is speaking about the church as we have 'peace' in the Lord.
ReplyDeleteRegarding ch. 5 of Genesis I can see that you do not understand what I am saying, but it is difficult to explain. For me there is a vast difference between 'formed' and 'created', and I believe absolutely that, as I have explained regarding John the baptist going in the spirit of Elijah, Genesis ch. 5 is where spiritual teaching begins. Sometimes we have to agree to disagree Keith, and I am ok about that.
I'm just conserned when we blur the lines between Jew and Gentile, Church and Israel, we come precariously close to violating a commandment of God, not to confuse the two. Twice, within the Book of Revelation, we are warned.
Delete"And I am aware of the slander of those who falsely claim to be Jews/Israel, but are in fact a synagogue of Satan."
"Look at those who belong to the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews/Israel but are liars instead. I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and they will know that I love you."
Calling ourselves Israel, in any form, is a heresy, not an unforgivable one, but it is, for some reason, looked down upon severly, by God. That's all. I love you and all my brothers and sisters. I just don't want anyone to mis-step and go down the wrong path.
Finally, your comment. "Sometimes we have to agree to disagree Keith, and I am ok about that.
With all the love and respect I can muster, you shouldn't be ok about that. Remember, knowing all truth is vital our relationship with God. Hashing out differences between brothers and sisters is a whole lot better than explaining
ourselves before the throne of God.
No one has the whole truth Keith, we are all on a journey. When I have to say I am OK about that I mean don't want to argue about things.
DeleteIt is not coincidence that the created Adam spoken of in Genesis ch. 5 lived 930 years,and the 930th chapter in the Bible is Matthew ch. 1. The old has gone, the new has come, and there is much in Bible numerics regarding 930.I truly love the hidden things of the Bible, and understand as I grow in the Lord what is slowly being revealed to me.
ReplyDeleteWith that, we are in total agreement with the scriptures. I apologize if I'm a little sensitive, when it comes to the Church/Israel thing. Satan came up with the replacement theology, which is clearly spoken against, by God, within the Scriptures.
DeleteBy the way, I think you know me well enough, that I don't believe in coincidence, within the Word of God. God's Spirit place every single word, yod and tittle for a reason...for the Kings and Priests of God (You and Me) to search it out and grow closer to God's Will and His Side.
DeleteThat's OK Keith, I don't consider it a replacement theory what I have spoken about, I consider it a side by side theory, as in one physical and one spiritual.
DeleteThat is - one physical Israel and one spiritual Israel.
ReplyDeleteJust as I have said before, we will never come to the knowledge of the truth.
ReplyDeleteEach one of us has a different foundation, and each one of us believes in a different God, and each one of us believes in a different Bible, and each one of us believes in different doctrines etc. etc.
How on earth do you think we will find agreement ??
(Amos 3:3) “Can two walk together, unless they are in agreement ?”
Look my friend, read my lips, IT CAN’T BE DONE !
If you would like to know the truth about any doctrine, then you FIRST need to believe in my Father the Lord Jesus Christ. That is the FIRST step, if you miss that step, then you are out of step with my Father the Lord Jesus Christ.
If you miss the FIRST step, then you are building on the wrong foundation, for it is my Father the Lord Jesus Christ who is the true and reliable foundation and cornerstone.
If you miss the FIRST step, then you are starting with a false god the devil, for my Father the Lord Jesus Christ is the only true God and eternal life and beside Him is NO other.
If you miss the FIRST step, then obviously you don’t believe the Bible to be the Word of my Father the Lord Jesus Christ and therefore you stand condemned before my Father the Lord Jesus Christ because you have NOT believed in the only one whom God has sent.
Paul, my Friend, I would gladly consider your beliefs, if they were according to the Word of God. However, your beliefs, on a whole, are so foreign to the Word of God, that I would have to reject the Word of God, for the word of Paul. It’s just not going to happen my friend. However, as I have been trying to do with you, is to find our common ground and see if we can agree on one thing, but you continue to call the word of God insulting names. Take a step back and look at yourself and ask yourself, would Jesus act the same way as you do?
ReplyDeleteAs for the truth, once again, you are wrong, Paul. The Scriptures clearly say:
ReplyDeleteBut when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into ALL THE TRUTH. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you.
All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.
My friend, this is the Y’shua/Jesus that I believe in, according to the Scriptures, one that has received his inheritance, from God, our fFather. One that is ready and willing to share that inheritance with all that will believe in him.
Hi Keith, don't you think, if we (collectively) as believers are the body of Christ on earth, then as Y'shua the Christ was an Israelite so we are collectively the Israel of God.
ReplyDeleteKeith, I think you should know me by now.
ReplyDeleteI honour the Word of God above all, by that I mean the 66 books of the Bible, NOT the 67 books or the 74 books which some pagans call the bible.
But that which you are quoting is definitely NOT the Bible.
Yes, I know that the 66 books of the Bible is so foreign to you, so you have to reject the Word of God the 66 books, and you also have to reject the God of the 66 books which I claim to be my Father the Lord Jesus Christ.
As for finding common ground; there is NO common ground my friend, as much as I would like to.
I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you don’t.
I believe the Bible to be the Word of God, and you don’t.
I believe the doctrines of the Apostles, and you don’t.
Every Christian believes that, or every disciple of the Lord believes that without fail.
Tell me, where can we have common ground ?
Keith, you don’t need to tell me that you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, for we both know that you don’t.
Many times you have been telling me that the English Bible is a mistranslation, therefore you don’t believe in the Word of God which is the Bible.
Tell me, where can we have common ground ?
If you would know my Father the Lord Jesus Christ, then you would know that He would speak much harsher words than I.
I have asked you numerous times, who is that Spirit of truth who will lead you into all the truth ?
I know that you can’t tell me, even though I have told you numerous times that my Father the Lord Jesus Christ is the Spirit of truth, and He is the only one who can lead you into all the truth (2 Cor. 3:17 and John 4:24).
Tell me, how can we be on common ground when you say and suggest, that it is the Father who sent the Spirit to lead you into all the truth ?
And what does Jesus do ? Is He watching what the other two gods are doing ?
Well, Brenda stated very clearly that there are TWO gods, ONE sent the OTHER.
Look my friend, I have nothing in common with that kind of foolish speculation. And you are exactly the same as Brenda, you think and say that the Father gave an inheritance to the Lord Jesus Christ.
Because your unbelief in the Lord Jesus Christ has caused you to believe that kind of nonsense. And for that reason I have asked you and Brenda to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, only then we have common ground.
Hi Brenda, that is a loaded question. :-) If you don't mind, I would like to unpack it.
ReplyDeleteIs Jesus a Jew, from the line of Isaac/Israel?
Yes.
Are we collectively the Body of Christ?
Yes.
Are we by association, all Jews or Israel?
No.
Jews are Jews
Gentiles are Gentiles.
Both make up the Body of Christ, but a Jew/Israel is not a gentile, nor is a gentile a Jew/Israel.
The scripture never once says or implies that we are a spiritual Israel. We are a spiritual graft upon the spiritual Israel. There is a literal Jews, who is culturally a Jew/Israel, and a spiritual Jew, who are observant and faithful to God and his Law. Faithful gentiles are grafted onto the spiritual Israel, therefore we, the faithful, become a new creation.
Now, the faithful gentile is not a Jew/Israel, but the faithful gentile is a Hebraic Child of God. The faithful gentile is not of the line of Isaac and the Law. The faithful gentile is of the line of Abraham, separate from Israel.
The scriptures are quite clear on this, saying,
Therefore, understand that those who are faithful, those are the sons of Abraham.
Scripture foresaw that God justifies Gentiles, by faith, announcing this to Abraham, that, "All nations are blessed in you."
So, those, by way of Faith, are blessed along by way of Abraham, the Believer.
Paul, You are showing you hardened heart. You keep saying things like,
ReplyDeleteI believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you don’t.
Wrong!!! However, you have elevated the son, the gift, above God.
I believe the Bible to be the Word of God, and you don’t.
Wrong. I do believe the Bible to be the Word of God, while you believe the Word of Man, to be higher than the Word of God.
I believe the doctrines of the Apostles, and you don’t.
You are correct there. I believe in the doctrines of Jesus Christ, not the apostles. You would be wise to do so, also.
You said, "I have asked you numerous times, who is that Spirit of truth who will lead you into all the truth ?"
And I have told you many times that the Spirit of Truth is God, pure and simple, and you can quote my on that, even though you won't. You have to keep changing what I say, so you can delude yourself.
Finally, and the gazillionth time, Jesus is not God, he is the flesh, in which God indwelled. Read the scriptures for what they say, not what some non-biblical spirit tells you. Open you eyes to the truth of the scriptures and be lead by the Spirit of God, not a separate spirit, but of God alone.
I do believe we are Spiritual Israelites Keith, as it says in Galatians ch. 3 v.7:-
ReplyDelete'Understand, then, that those who have faith are the sons of Abraham.'
There is much in Galatians ch. 3 which reveals this.
ReplyDeleteI see your point, Brenda, other than the fact that Israel is mentioned only time, within Galatians and that is Galatians 6:15-16 and he is talking about first the faithful in the Messiah and then the Israel of God, faithful of Israel, the Jews.
Some versions say 'and' to the Israel of God, Keith, and some say 'to the Israel of God', as if it is talking about believers. I believe that if it was talking about Israel in the flesh it would just say 'Israel'. However, whatever we believe regarding this does not prevent us from being children of God. Whatever we call ourselves in the flesh we are a new creation in the Spirit, being one with God.
ReplyDeleteKeith, you said, “Wrong!!! However, you have elevated the son, the gift, above God.”
ReplyDeleteNo Keith, I don’t do that, I’m elevating the Son as the only one God there is and beside Him there is NO OTHER God.
You and Brenda are the ones who SEPARATE the Son from God and portray Him as some kind of an inferior middleman.
You said, “I do believe the Bible to be the Word of God, while you believe the Word of Man, to be higher than the Word of God.”
No you don’t !
You call the Bible a mistranslation, and for that reason you never quote the Bible with chapter and verse.
And what do you mean by “the Word of Man” ?
As I have said, I believe the Bible to be the Word of God who is my Father the Lord Jesus Christ who is in heaven the Lord God Almighty the creator of heaven and earth.
You said, “I believe in the doctrines of Jesus Christ, not the apostles. You would be wise to do so, also.”
No you don’t !
The doctrines of Jesus Christ ARE the doctrines of the apostles, Acts 3:42 “And they continued steadfastly in the apostles doctrine’ …”
The doctrines of the apostles are NOT the doctrines of men, they are the doctrines of God because they are written in the Bible. And if they are not written in the Bible, then they are the doctrines of men.
Remember, the Bible is the Word of God, and NOT the word of men.
You said, “And I have told you many times that the Spirit of Truth is God,”
Yes, and I have asked you many times WHICH God ?
Is it Gadol Ehye or is it one of those two spanish gods El Elyon and EL Shaddi, or is it Yahweh, or WHO ??
You said, “Finally, and the gazillionth time, Jesus is not God,”
Yes Keith, that’s the fundamental problem we have.
You will never worship the Lord Jesus Christ because you don’t believe that the Lord is the Lord God Almighty standing in front of you.
John 10:38 (The man born blind) “And he said to Jesus, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped Him.”
Matthew 14:33 The Apostles WORSHIPED JESUS.
Matthew 2:11 The wise men WORSHIPED JESUS, while He was in the manger etc. etc.
Well my friend, I suggest that you and Brenda should do as the apostles did and taught, or like every believer does. And don’t worship those unbiblical gods called Gadel Ehye or Yahweh etc. that would be pagan worship.
The earliest versions have the follosing text:
ReplyDeleteεἰρήνη καί ἔλεος ἐπί αὐτός καί ἐπί Ἰσραήλ θεός
Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule and to the Israel of God.
Notice καί, which means 'and', appears twice in the verse. Even the versions, that leave it out, have a footnote about the earlies translcripts having it in there or the footnote has something like, (6:16) Or 'rule and to'.
I agree it's nothing to argue about, but it's clear that there is two houses of believers within God's camp, The House of the Gentiles (The Hebraics) and The House of the Israel (Jews).
Great Conversation!
What comes straight into my mind Keith is that in Christ we are one, no male no female, no Jew no gentile, no slave no free...etc. We have become children of God. That is the important thing. I am not sure what you mean about the two houses in the camp,and I have to say that I haven't looked too deeply into the 'Israel of God.' thing. Yes it is good to engage in discussions as it causes us to search the scriptures more and increase our knowledge.
ReplyDeleteYes, we are a new creation, children of God, Ben El Shaddai. The only thing that I could see concerning the two houses is our mission. While our destiny is the same, what God has planned, for each, in the End of Days, appear to be exclusively different. It's cool to watch it play out.
ReplyDeleteWell my friend, this earliest versions are always decoys, red herrings to lead you away from believing in the Lord Jesus Christ.
ReplyDeleteStick to the New American Standard, King James, New International and you can’t go wrong. Every Christian believer believes in one of those three Bibles, it depends on their individual maturity in Christ.
And yes, there will always be two houses of believers, one house who believes in the Lord Jesus Christ, the other house believes in the DEVIL.
And nothing in between. No middle ground. For or against the Lord Jesus Christ.
Yes it is that narrow my friend. My Father the Lord Jesus Christ has told us that the way is narrow and only FEW will find it.
Brenda, please tell me, how many years have we been debating the fact that you, Tom, Dick and Harry can NEVER EVER become children to Paul G. or to the Queen of England, NO ! NOT even to God.
ReplyDeleteBrenda, that’s an IMPOSSIBILITY !
Do you think by believing in the Queen of England that you become a daughter to her ?
You gotta be kidding Brenda.
That’s funny, Paul!!! The NIV and the KJV don’t even agree with each other.
ReplyDeleteYes Keith, the wording is different between the KJV and the NIV, but the meaning is the same.
ReplyDeleteThe KJV is a flowery Shakespearean language. But most scholars prefer to use the KJV, because of the accuracy of the KJV, and it’s authority.
But as for me, I prefer the New American Standard Bible. Most scholars will also accept that Bible for accuracy of the Scriptures and it’s authority.
You see, the message of every Bible is the same, it NEVER EVER changes.
But as for doctrine, they slightly change, but that is according to the individuals maturity.
Because I know my Father the Lord Jesus Christ personally, therefore I don’t need the Bible to preach the gospel, but I need the Bible the Word of God to point out differences in doctrine, true doctrine and false doctrine, so that the saints will be equipped in all the good work of my Father the Lord Jesus Christ.
Yes, Keith, I do believe that Luke ch. 21 speaks of the gentiles attacking Israel.
ReplyDeleteHowever,Jesus says in verse 32 and 33:- 'Truly I tell you, THIS generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. '
Revelation ch. 21 v.1 reveals that there would be a new heaven and a new earth, and I believe that is what happened after Y'shua's sacrifice.
Paul,
ReplyDeleteJohn ch. 1 v.12 states:- 'Yet to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-'
His name means 'YHWH saves' Y'shua - Jesus in the English translation, is our Saviour, the firstborn of God's Spirit, (the first of many brethren, as Romans ch. 8 v. 29 states.
The only way I will continue this conversation with you Paul is if you quote what Romans ch. 8 v.29 says in your Bible. If you do not then I take it that you do not believe that Jesus is the BROTHER of those who are born again of the Holy Spirit, and if He is our brother then He can not be our father. I wait for you to quote this scripture as it reads in your Bible.
Yes Brenda, John 1:12 states exactly that which you have quoted from the Bible, and it means exactly what the Lord has stated.
DeleteBut as always, you slip in a LIE from the devil and said, “His name means 'YHWH saves' Y'shua”
Where is that written in the Bible ? Where ?
Absolutely nowhere ! the devil has slipped in that LIE, in order to deceive those who read that comment, because he is called the FATHER of ALL LIES.
You see Brenda, lying is in his nature and he physically fathered all liars.
I’m not saying that Christian believers don’t lie, but my Father the Lord Jesus Christ restrains them, and they will practice to speak the truth.
John 1:12, I have been explaining that passage before, but you seemingly can’t hear Brenda, but for the sake of others, I will explain that again.
John 1:12, “But as many as received him, to them he gave the power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
That is God’s STATEMENT !
That is NOT a job, or a command you must DO in order to BECOME sons to God.
And neither can you stretch out your hands to receive Jesus in order that you might BECOME a son to God.
No, no, no, may that never be ! That is the modern day fallacy of Christianity, to think that they can by their will and action become children to God.
DON’T stop at verse 12, just read what is says in the next verse.
The next verse, verse 13 gives you the EXPLANATION of verse 12 statement.
Which were born, NOT of blood, NOR of the will of the flesh, NOR of the will of man, but of God.”
Can you see, they couldn’t do a thing to BECOME sons to God, just the same as you can’t do anything to BECOME a son to the Queen of England.
Those are impossibilities !
A son of God was always a son of God, from BEFORE the foundation of the world.
And a son of Satan will always be a son of Satan from AFTER the creation of the world.
Well Brenda, you make the same mistake with Romans 8:29, exactly the same.
Brenda, you need to read the Bible slowly, and don’t gloss over it, for it is the Word of God to make one wise unto salvation.
We have to believe on the NAME of Y'shua (the English translation is Jesus) to become a child of God Paul. Every Hebrew name describes what a person does. Look up the meaning of our Saviour's name Paul. Also, believe what the scriptures say when it says Jesus was the first of many brethren. He was the first born of God's Spirit. If you do not believe these written words then you will not believe other scripture, and there will be no more discussion with you.
DeleteIt’s sad, Brenda, that certain things are so clear, within the Word of God, that even unbeliever can see and understand, while others deliberately misconstrue the scriptures for their own vanity and doctrine. The fact that Y’shua is the firstborn of many brethren is one of those, that is plainly written.
DeletePaul, God's Doctrine has been the same as it has been from the beginning. The Word of God is the same yesterday, today and will be tomorrow.
ReplyDeleteAs for the NIV, KJV and NASB I'm sure you have both in hand, please check, there are at least 16 references where the verses are either excluded or footnoted as not appearing in the earliest text.
As to your testimony of knowing Jesus pesonally, that's between you and God, as to whether it is true or a lie. A good way to know is whether your "Jesus given doctrine" is in accordance with the Word of God. It is clearly not. So many mistakes come from your testimony that it cannot be from Jesus or God.
Brenda, as for the new heaven and new earth and the old passing away, as referenced in Rev. 21, does that concur with what John wrote in Rev.1:1,
ReplyDelete"The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants WITH WHAT MUST SOON TAKE PLACE."
When do you think chapters 1-20 occurred?
Keep in mind, six separate times, he wrote, μετά οὗτος, Meta Houtos, which means "after this" indicating that the following particular event is going to occur immediately after the previously stated event. A lot has to happen before the New Heaven and New Earth comes on the scene.
Please correct me, if I misunderstood you.
I can't really answer you here Keith as there is so much in the scriptures regarding this. Even talking about Heaven and Earth, what is the 'Third Heaven' spoken about where Paul says he knew a man who was taken there, just as I believe that I was taken to the same place in my near death experience. What is the first and the second heaven? I can only learn about these things as the Holy Spirit reveals them to me. I do enjoy discussions though.
DeleteHi Keith, I could discuss loads here with you but what I see regarding new Heaven and new Earth is a Heaven where the first born of God's Spirit is there and a new Earth where mankind is able to become a child of God and have eternal life.
ReplyDeleteAs for the old passing away Keith, I what passed away was the fact that mankind could not be reconciled back to God because of their sins. This was changed after Y'shua's sacrifice.
ReplyDeleteHey Brenda, that’s great, on the spiritual level and the scriptures support that interpretation. I like it. However, on the literal level, the structure of the Greek text reveals that Revelation is a sequential symbolized prophecy of things which must shortly come to past.
ReplyDeleteYes, I basically agree with you here Keith, but there is so much within all of the books of Revelation that I think it would probably take a very long time to speak about all that is contained in it, and it can only be revealed to each of us at specific times.
DeleteTim and Sandi, how do you reconcile your belief with the fact that God said, "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in that day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."? It says "that day". Even if you read it as a spiritual death, it still says Muth twice, death twice. Is that a spiritual death twice. I don't think so. God put it twice to circumvent the belief that it wasn't only one type of death. It was a spiritual death and a physical death. Also, if you believe that it's only one 24 hr day, then you have to conclude that God lied to them. Just curious as to your thoughts.
ReplyDeleteTim and Sandy, I hearing crickets. Don't leave me hanging. Ha Ha.
DeleteI'm sorry Chris I don't go to blogs much anymore. Keith texted me and said you had a question.
DeleteI don't really get what you're asking.
What is Muth?
Please for clarifications so I can understand more, when does it say death twice in that verse?
Here is what you quoted: "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in that day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
I see death only once in that sentence.
The day part is easy. When they eat it, that day they start to die. A separation if you of the relationship between God and man. The protection of God over their life physically is lost because they no longer operate out of the spirit. God kicked them out after they ate it.
Why would God be lying if it was a 24 hour day? I am just not understanding the question.
Keith, as always, good post.
ReplyDeleteBrenda, Dont't you think it's very important that we don't get lost in the spiritual and symbolic interpretation and forget about the literal? Just my two cents worth.
ReplyDeleteHi Chris,
DeleteI think that as I am a born again believer then, as scripture says, I have the mind of Christ and the old man is now dead. This is why I originally set up two Christian blogs, one to share my experiences and thoughts as I grow in the Lord (which is this one) and one to share with those who may not be born again of God's Spirit, but who may be being led to the Lord (which is my fatherithankyouforjesus blog). Regarding this blog, I love to interact with and maybe encourage, and be encouraged by, other brothers and sisters in the Lord. It always comes into my mind what is written in Revelation ch. 12 v.11:-
'And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony....
1 corinthians ch. 2 v.14 says the things of the Spirit of God are Spiritually discerned, and that is really what the Holy Spirit has shown me as I have been working out, and still am working out, my salvation, and why I came to put up two Christian blogs.
Hmm... I think I just left you with my twenty pounds worth Chris :-)
Just to add, Chris, regarding what scripture says about we who are born again having the mind of Christ:- 'For “who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.' 1 Corinthians ch. 2 v.16. It is nothing for us to boast in, it has been granted us through the sacrifice of our Saviour.
DeleteOK, I'm sorry, but I think I missed that answer to my question. I think you are correct about discerning the spiritual things of the bible, but does that leave the literal interpretation as unimportant? I do agree with everything you've said, but if we discern the bible consistently as spiritual alone, doesn't we miss out on the literal messages god is trying to get across to us?
DeletePaul, as always, you suck. You're such a dork. Don't you ever read the Bible? You need some professional help. You need to quit listening to your imaginary friend.
ReplyDeleteHi again Chris,
ReplyDeleteI do think there are both spiritual and literal interpretations in the Bible, and I do think that I have shared both in my posts. I only put up posts on my blog when I am inspired to do so, and this usually comes about when things happen in my life that I believe are changing my ways and thoughts, and I think encouragement in this area is what we are to do and is good for us all.
When I was a child my father used to talk about the Lord to me and my siblings in a way that we could understand, but I know that if he would have spoken in a spiritual way it would have been like a foreign language to me then.I think this in a way would explain my sharing on two different blogs. Jesus said 'My words are Spirit and life', and we are also told that the things of God are foolishness to the carnal mind.
I think that because I came up out of the baptismal water speaking in a language I had never learned, which the scriptures say are mysteries to God which no man understands, then the spiritual interpretations are quite normal to me. I do believe that I have also spoken about the literal interpretation of the Bible though also, as in talking about things like going to the person who has something against you to speak about the issue.
I hope I have explained how I feel to you fully regarding this. I could go on forever, but there is a time to 'refrain' from speaking. I can't resist telling you what my husband says to many people. He says 'If you see any two legged donkeys in town it is because Brenda has talked the hind legs off them. :-)
By the way Keith, I think it is very important that the true interpretation of the scriptures is revealed, and I believe that is one of the things that you have been called to do.
ReplyDeleteThanks, Chris! As for your other comments, I do agree that all levels of understanding must be anchored to the literal level. We must reconcile all levels or we will be like balloons without a tether.
ReplyDeleteKeith, wouldn't that say that we would be being held back from being seated in Heavenly places with Christ Jesus, as it says in Ephesians ch. 2 v.6.
DeleteThat scripture says:-'And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,'
DeleteHi Brenda, there a literal spirit and there is a spiritual interpretation. Two entirely different things.
DeleteHi Keith, I am not sure what you mean. What is a literal Spirit. Also, I am not sure what I am doing wrong in my blog posts. I feel they are much the same as other people's sharing. Could you explain it to me, and I will try to answer you.
DeleteHey Brenda, first of all, I I think you misunderstood me somehow. I didn’t say anything about you doing anything wrong in your blog post. We are in 100% agreement.
DeleteAs for a literal spirit, God created us in his image, body, mind and spirit. We, including Y’shua/Jesus, have an actual body, and actual mind and an actual spirit. These are exclusive or separate from God’s Spirit. When we look at the Scriptures, we must interpret everything literally, unless it has been symbolized, such as the parables and the Book of Revelation.
As for a spiritual interpretation, it is the next level of interpretation of the Scriptures and I believe you do it well. What I was talking to Chris about is that sometimes people take hey spiritual interpretation and attempt to circumvent the literal meaning of the Scriptures. it is in the spiritual interpretation where God speaks to us individually. Again, that interpretation must be literally anchored to the literal interpretation to know that it is actually from God.
I apologize if my wording has caused you any pain or consternation. That is not my intent.
Thanks, Brenda. We must do as the Lord leads. I Praise God that he allows us to participate in the furthering of His Kingdom. We both know that he doesn't need our help. :-)
ReplyDeleteThat's right Keith, it is the other way around - we need His help. As I have said many times,life in the Lord is like a game of chess, the Lord being the Master chess player and we being the pieces that He moves to win the game.
ReplyDeleteHi Keith,
ReplyDeletejust in case you do not see them, I left you two questions regarding your last comment to Chris.
Hi Chris, give me an example of the literal translation that you think I might be missing out on and I will try to give you my views on it,as I am not sure what you mean.
ReplyDeleteAh, now I understand Keith, and yes I do agree. However, I believe we can only be led into the whole truth through the leading and guidance of the Holy Spirit, as stated in the scriptures. Jesus was the first born of the Spirit and we also become His brethren when we are born of God's Spirit,being taught first by the milk of the Word, then by the strong meat. I think we are back on track with one another now eh? Ask me any question you like if you have a query.
ReplyDeleteI agree, Brenda, it is only by the Spirit, that we arrive at the Truth of the Scriptures.
ReplyDeleteBrenda, you mentioned earlier in your comments, "Revelation ch. 21 v.1 reveals that there would be a new heaven and a new earth, and I believe that is what happened after Y'shua's sacrifice." I was wondering how you could come to that conclusion, if you took revelation literally. It is true that revelations was symbolized but the symbols reflect a literal actuality. Taking some scripture literal while taking others spiritual causes you to miss out on the big picture and it is clear that God doesn't operate that way or do you think he does.
ReplyDeleteHi Chris,
ReplyDeleteI do believe in both actually, and believe that the new Heavens and new Earth is literal, but where it says in Romans ch. 6 v.6 that our 'old man' is crucified with Christ, and in Ephesians ch. 2 v. 5 that we are dead in our sins, then this is speaking spiritually to us. I hope I have explained what I mean, and answered your question.